The debate continues today in the North Shore Outlook on the size of the proposed tower earmarked for the foot of Lonsdale Ave. Now it's Councillor Pam Bookham squaring off against our populous Mayor Darrell Mussatto.
According to the story, Mussatto says he was just as suprised as anyone at the scale of the 433-foot tower. Mussatto's quote in the story goes something like this:
“We said ‘Holy Mackerel’ this (plan) is big" but "we have to treat [the developer] fairly and follow the process."
But Bookham says Mussatto is not being up front with the public and says she does not believe that the mayor did not know that [the tower plan] was this big, "that's baloney." "I can't see a developer doing this on spec without any indication from the mayor and senior planners."
Well, them's fighting words - not often you get "Holy Mackerel" and "Baloney" in the same story.
103 opinions/comments:
It's a serious thing to accuse a fellow Council member of lying, especially the Mayor.
Bookham is left with two options. If she realizes that its a false accusation, then she must apologize. If she does really believes that Mussatto lied, she must run for Mayor.
Let's see which happens.
Pam Bookham for Mayor!
The new boy wonder!
Darrell Mussatto.
Holy Toledo norvan that is one humungous spire!
Actually Baloney and Mackerel are great together in a sandwich.
A better pic on this website
www.members.shaw.ca/fight.site.8
Thanks. The active link to that photo is:
www.members.shaw.ca/fight.site.8
Cheers,
Barry
CNV is already a nightmare to drive through, and they're making it worse by building more and more traffic blockers in the name of transit.
Lonsdale business' are already way down on my list of resources - it's actually easier for me to go to Burnaby than it is to CNV.
And yet CNV is actually entertaining building something like this, losing yet more heritage in the process.
CNV - may I suggest you focus on the management of the resources you do have and maximizing the potential revenue for your customers (the business that pay you massive taxes every year) before you attempt to find greener grass - grass you're simply not equipped to deal with.
Isn't that where the "Erection" sign used to be? Perhaps they should honour the old name by calling it the 'Erecto'
Ok, now THAT'S FUNNY!
This is the comedic relief I've been wanting all these years!!
I post a re-worked script from scene 9 of "The Life of Brian".... NOTHING!!
Way to go Anon 4:46.
Some other names? Erectonia.... The Erectionaire..... L'Erectionnié.... any others?
It's just Mussatto's latest erection.
Yes, but this one's not drug induced!
Hmmmmmm...... What happened the last time North Vancouver counted on the Conservatives to deliver a major project to revitalize the City's shipyards?
Dimwits!!! Site 8 is to the WEST of Lonsdale; the "Erection" sign was at the foot of St. Georges, one block east of Lonsdale and south of Esplanade.
Bookham had better be able to back up her claims...
Why?
I say if Pam is right, good on her!
She does not stike me as the kind of person to make such a public statement and not be confident about its accuracy.
The only reason people think he is popular is, like Sharpe, he has managed to convince the press to have his picture in nearly every week in either the Outlook or the NSNews. How is he managing to get so much press over all the other elected people in North Vancouver?
I believe Bookham, she is not a "press seeker", nor has she ever shown any kind of personality other then a very steady, honest and calm individual.
She will be proven to be correct and Mussatto will be proven to be one of the worst Mayors the City has ever had for the average person.
Go Pam Go
Sue Cook
I really hope the truth comes out before the election as it is truly a time for a change.
Why are all of these retirees fighting progress in the City?
I find it highly hypocritical that these residents - many who live in highrises of their own - are trying to quash this, for the benefit of their own views.
And the militaristic rhetoric they are using is unnerving, to say the least.
Are there any other links on the web to this backlash? I notice that TLCA has absolutely nothing on this issue on their website.
This has nothing to do with views, it has to do with respect for the OCP process, and the years that residents in the City worked on a plan for Lower Lonsdale. How much more damage will the present Council do before November? and after, unless there are changes. It is not "mostly retired" people, there are many young people getting involved for the first time. Change is coming.
It says right in the article that the tower haters are mostly retired.
For a prodevelopment perspective on Site 8 go to http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=3146815
Of course Site 8 is not where the Erection site was located but since when do facts get in the way of a site (sight) joke or many other comments on the blog.
Vincent Santacroce
But other sites are, a hotel and 4 apartment towers.
It says right in the article that the tower haters are mostly retired.
If CNV continues to do public business during the day when residents and business owners are trying to make enough $$ to pay the taxes and when they know opposition will be at it's weakest, I for one, am mighty glad that those with the time to allocate to the fight have chosen to take up the task.
And if those retired folk choose to use militant tactics, I can only assume those tactics are the same ones used to "get" them retired as successful as they are; so there must be something to 'em.
Perhaps the rest of us can learn a little something from this.
Thanks "retired folk"! you guys rock!
I don't know why this topic group is so focussed on retired individuals as being the culprits when it comes to Site 8. You all seem to need reminding, SCHOOLS are closing because ..... only those who have either done their "duty" by having had their bountiful children or those who don't want to have children, both are pricing out the young families. (who would equaly be complaining about Site 8)
Point being, of course, its the retired people who bought into Lower Lonsdale many years ago knowing that the highest building that could ever be built in front of them, would be a mere 120'.
Once again the discrimination against older people rears its ugly head.
Why shouldn't retired people protest? After all they are the ones that built the City and they have also paid more taxes then younger folk.
I too would love to see all ages involved and I am going to get ahold of Ivan and find out if he wants anyone to go to coffee shops, etc with a petition. I have 3 days off during the week and I would be pleased to get involved.
Sue Cook
Gentlepersons embrace this development, it will pay taxes and when the city and dirtrict amalgamate that will mean more money to pay for the necessary infrastructure projects, build more of them for that matter, WE NEED MORE PEOPLE ON THE NORTH SHORE, THIS WILL BRING BETTER TRANSPORTATION LINKS FOR ALL TO ENJOY, also you cannot see it from lynn valley.
Hickery dickery dock
It's unfortunate that this has turned into a debate between well-to-do retirees vs. working families.
But given that Ivan Leonard and his crew want to crush a development that would bring long-overdue public amenities to Lower Lonsdale, including a swimming pool, this is exactly the case.
Leanord said himself in the North Shore Outlook that he wants Lower Lonsdale removed as being a Metro Vancouver regional town centre. Meanwhile, all other town centres are embracing their town centre status in an effort to embrace environment, sustainability, public transportation, and density that works for families.
I'm sure if you did a survey you would find that most of those who are against this development live in highrises themselves.
Sue Cook,
You manage to play a "card" everytime the debate doesn't go your way. For example, on the issue of housing, you always pull the "poverty" card. And on this subject, you play the "age discrimination" card.
Give me a break. Why can't we have some open discussion about the pros and cons of this project without your indignant and predictable response.
I'M GLAD IVAN LEONARD AND THE ANTI-SITE 8 FOLKS ARE FIGHTING THIS.
DON'T PICK ON THE BABY BOOMERS. THEY EARNED THEIR MONEY, AND THEY PAID BIG BUCKS FOR THEIR CONDOS. IT'S NOT FAIR TO BLOCK THEIR VIEW.
WE DON'T NEED MORE KIDS, OR OUTSIDERS, IN NORTH VAN. WE DON'T NEED STUPID ART MUSEUMS OR SWIMMING POOLS OR PUBLIC TRANSIT.
THERE'S TOO MANY PEDESTRIANS AROUND, BUT NOT ENOUGH ROADWAYS TO MOVE TRAFFIC.
I'M WITH SUE COOK, IVAN LEANARD AND THE TLCA ON THIS ONE!
7:51 aka George/Jason
Why don't you read the postings again. The subject was retired people against the site 8 project and once again the attack was mainly against the fact that these people are retirees.
In terms of housing - don't you ever watch the news? It now takes at least $140,000.00 in order to purchase a home. How many people in the City have that kind of salary, young, middle aged or older?
How many rental units are being built and how many are being torn down?
It is obvious that the only card games you know is the one of solitaire
Sue Cook
Ummm Sue,
The North Shore Outlook article is about how retirees are against Site8. That's why we're having this discussion.
I think it's important that we respect our elders, and especially senior citizens. I think some of them are being lied to by the TLCA
Sue, whether you believe it or not, I'm not making the comments you keep attributing to me.
Good to see you finally want to work for the Community Association and are joining me in the fight against site 8.
That's my fight.site.8 using a pic from the 18th floor of the observatory that a community member took to more accurately portray what this development project.
And he appeared to me that he was in his 30's, not really a senior.
Is the picture being referred to the one that was labelled "View from 1st Street"?
But readers are being told it's really "View from 10th floor of building on 1st Street?"
And readers can be sure that the portrayal of the proposed building in this photo montage is accurate? I would hate to think that incomplete or inaccurate information is being used to further a particular cause.
NO THAT WASN'T A TYPO (I THOUGHT YOU MEANT "OUR POPULAR MAYOR") BUT ON SECOND THOUGHT, POPULOUS IS MORE APPROPRIATE.
POPULOUS:DENSELY POPULATED; HAVING A LARGE POPULATION; FILLED TO CAPACITY
NO THAT WASN'T A TYPO (I THOUGHT YOU MEANT "OUR POPULAR MAYOR") BUT ON SECOND THOUGHT, POPULOUS IS MORE APPROPRIATE.
POPULOUS:DENSELY POPULATED; HAVING A LARGE POPULATION; FILLED TO CAPACITY
CAPS is back!
I thought she was working for the Salvation Army now.
I find it disgusting that people can still be so self centered and backwards as to continually try to sabotage our region, undermine future generations and hold back the great potential of a city like North Vancouver. Please enlighten me as to when the magical cut of line for maximum density and maximum height was reached. Let me guess right after you moved in to your house that was preceded by many other houses. Or it was after you bought your condo in a tower a tower that was preceded by many towers, at some point there was a first tower good thing the selfish people of that time lost the fight to stop progress right? Lonsdale is part of a regional town center serving the entire North Shore, increasing density is part of metro Vancouvers livable region strategy. It is to keep housing affordable and development sustainable and to lower our environmental foot print. Not only should that trump your twisted beliefs but the livable region plan should be followed by all municipalities. The tower is a fairly short tower with no significant shadowing, it comes with much needed amenities, it brings alot of units right next door to the main transit hub on the north shore and the seabus. It is architecturally beautiful, something that is rare now a days. If you own a condo with your views blocked then think of the views your condo blocked one day when it was constructed, if you live in a house and think your part of metro Vancouver should remian closed to new comers with no increases in density then remeber that your house when built was once a increase in density and alowed someone new to enter the city.
If you think your propert will lose value then do some research or talk to a expert, density increases value, amenities increase value, the improved transit this brings(rapid transit eventually) increases value, and even signature landmarks increase value. If this is to hard to grasp for some of you then I feel sorry for you, but just remember that your sabotaging the future of the city, the region and playing your part in sabotaging our planet as your pushing for unsustainable growth...sadly based on insane ideological reasons or financial reasons that funnily are probably are nothing but a illusion based on a lack of understanding of how our cities work.
A ocp plan is only a vision. If you cant handle that then move up north and away from civilization, progress and growth. Read this if you want to understand the nature of a ocp plan.
Official Community Plan
The Official Community Plan (OCP) outlines the City of North Vancouver's long-term vision. As one of the City's most important policy documents, the OCP serves to balance the social, environmental, and economic needs of the community. It is a statement for the City's future: a truly livable city with a distinct sense of place and visible links to the community's natural and cultural past, a city that is safe, welcoming, inspiring and inviting to all people.
The City first adopted an OCP in 1980, and updated it in 1992. The most recent version was adopted in 2002. During the OCP revision process, the City encouraged community input through open houses, focus groups, advertisements, and surveys. Once adopted, all other municipal bylaws and works undertaken by the City must be consistent with the Plan.
The OCP is intended to provide a degree of certainty for the future of our community. As a result, it is expected that revisions will not be made on a frequent basis. Changes are warranted from time to time however. Like the community, the Plan must be flexible in responding to changing conditions and values. The latest version of the OCP is expected to guide the City up to its Centennial year in 2007. At that time, the Plan may be reviewed and updated as necessary.
Implementation of the OCP is a collective effort, one that requires the actions of the City, and many others, including bylaws, public programs, civic projects, private developments, and citizen's action.
For bylaw purposes, the official version of the Official Community Plan is in hard copy format, which is available through the City Clerk's Department. An online version of the OCP can also be referenced through the Publications page.
Official Community Plan: Targets, Indicators and Monitoring System
The Targets, Indicators and Monitoring System (TIMS) is a set of OCP indicators that measures the progress of the Official Community Plan. Developed by community representatives, the TIMS will produce a report card of the data gathered from internal sources and national, provincial, and regional indicator programs.
A few comments about Millennium who I believe is one of the developers in Lower Lonsdale. There is more about this company but I do not want to take up too much space.
The comments at 3:24 and 3:52 oh please - who the heck do you think you are. I have never read so much nonsense in my life.
As for you George = dream on. I am going to talk to Ivan and if the Community Association is supporting you in your bid for City Hall I will be amazed.
"Millennium is partnered with another BC company, Armeco Construction Ltd, as part of the Armeco Group of Companies. The Armeco Group was founded by Amir Malekyazdi. Amir Malekyazdi also was the first president of Armeco Construction at its incorporation in BC in 1981. Other directors of the company included Shahram and Sharokh Malekyazdi. Armeco Construction currently has only one director: Paul S.O. Barbeau, a lawyer who until January 2006 was the president of Vancouver’s ruling NPA party. “The interrelationships between these two companies and a former official of the NPA suggests at least the appearance of a conflict of interest. The highly unusual financing scheme where Vancouver’s NPA government lends money to the Maleks to construct this project makes the entire deal seem highly suspicious”, Work Less Party mayoral candidate Betty Krawczyk said. Former COPE city councillor Tim Louis echoed this concern, noting that “"This is not the way that we do business in a demoratic city."In the years I was on city counsel and in the decades I have been closely following councel matters I have never seen a contract let in this matter."
Sue Cook
Is it possible that provincial funding for the National Maritime Centre is contingent on approval of Millenium's Site 8 proposal? Are we looking at yet another variation of a P3? It would certainly explain how suddenly the Millenium proposal burst on the scene just a month after NVC Council authorized a staff to initiate a study of Site 8. Is Millenium's proposal at the heart of the business case CNV is shopping to the senior levels of government? The BC Liberals require that all capital projects over a certain amount be vetted by Partnerships BC. This is not just another highrise development in the City.
Sue, who said anything about the election or an endorsement? Is that all you're focused on? Nominations don't even open until 30 September.
Neither TLCA nor the CCA endorses candidates, it's a fundamental part of their statement of purposes.
As to the long statements by the supporters of the developerment. I'll get to you later, signatures to gather.
To all who wish to post URLs, the blogger program cuts them off.
Go to www.tinyurl.com and shrink it until it fits and paste the new link.
Sue, Millennium is Vision Vancouver's and formerly COPE's choice for the Woodward building in Vancouver.
They are the NDP's "green" developer. Which councillors are pushing for Site 8? Get it now?
A few less wild conspiracies and a few more facts would be nice.
Really take a look at all the projects within a 6 block radius to really understand what is going on. The hotel and the four buildings going up by Pinnacle.
Remember when a promise was made that the ICBC building would be the tallest one in the area?
George said:
"I'll get to you later, signatures to gather."
Will you give us the digitized signature(s) as a tinyurl.com file George?
The last bunch that you gave to the world, via a www link to the city, were priceless. 83 for us; 83 lost votes for you.
This is not about lost views, everyone knows views are not guaranteed. This is about process. The new Pinnacle Hotel will have a pool, access available to the public.
Mussatto can't be bought...but he can be rented!
The Pinnacle Development(s) are different than Site 8. www.thepier.info
It consists of " …a newly restored North Shore heritage neighbourhood of former shipyard buildings transformed into galleries, marketplaces, boutique shops and one-of-a-kind restaurants. The Landing is Pinnacle International's luxurious retail and residences at the crossroads of Lonsdale and Esplanade."
It consists of the:
22 story Premiere building,
6 story The Landing building (not as tall but very large footprint),
23 story Esplanade,
12 story Esplanade West,
and the 6 story Hotel and Conference Center which contains the pool referred to above.
"Pinnacle International creates the North Shore's most sophisticated Four-Star Hotel and largest Conference Centre with a complete floor of spas, pool and fitness facilities reserved for hotel guests and residents of The Pier and six floors reserved for elegant hotel-serviced residences."
And it is this project that has promised to include the museum portion of the Presentation House:
"The Pier's heritage restoration has been designed to include a planned museum complete with Victory ship hull, parks, galleries and artist lofts, one-of-a-kind shops and restaurants. The careful restoration of the heritage buildings testify to the attention paid to the historical significance of the former shipyard site. The centrepiece of this heritage restoration is a planned museum highlighting the history and many facets of the North Vancouver community. "
This is not the 36 story Site 8 project that has not been approved yet.
Isn't that where Barb Sharp wanted the Casino that Mussatto saved us from?
The old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words still holds true, so a visit to Sean Wardell's blog on what is happening on our waterfront is most enlightening rather than the drab approach that is being done by CNV so far.
Lower Lonsdale Neighbourhood
Development Guide
A look at another municipality, this time Nanaimo, at least they are providing for its citizens and visitors, a clear indication of what's in store for their downtown core.
A quick way to keep us abreast of what's happening on the North Shore, not only in Lower Lonsdale but also at 17th and Lonsdale, is for the City to provide a webpage where they have used Google SketchUP (free) in conjunction with Google Earth (free) to provide us with a 3D perspective of what the city, and developers, have in mind.
Plastic and cardboard cut-out high rises are from another era, a time when the only access to that type of information had to be done during business hours at City Hall (still is).
Its time for change.
For good measure, where is the 3D Google SketchUp view of the proposed Hospice as well.
Good work Sean Wardell, it would be good to see a GIS map with all the buildings completed or proposed in the core waterfront area.
Again, the big picture would show what we're being asked to accept.
So George, are you up to gathering together like minded souls to take on the challenge of making a new GIS map using SketchUp?
With a digital camera, existing buildings can be photographed from four sides, four corners. Using Picasa,a software program, it creates a "wallpaper" that can then be applied to the box in SketchUp.
The next time you open Google Earth your drawings show up in correct proportion and detail without having drawn one line to generate a window, door, or underground parking lot.
As to Site 8 and Site 10:
Help model a City (North Vancouver)
Great site Sean - very informative.
I notice that James Fox's development is one of the features. Could any one tell me if Mr. Fox has already bought some of the units in his building?
If this is true is it legal for developers and builders to purchase in their own buildings?
Sue Cook
Sue my gosh are you that out of it? This is how developers make big bucks. They scoop up the good suites in the building with little down and then resell them for profit when the buildings are completed. Why would there be any kind of restriction on a builder buying or owning his/her own property. This is how money is made and how the world goes round.
Sue while you may be a voice of reason out there you are really out of touch with how the world of business operates.
Thank you Mr. Kerkoff - and yes you are correct I think I am very ignorant about the rules around development and that is why I am asking the question.
Perhaps you could also tell me if there is a limit to how many units they can purchase in their developments? I also would like to know if there is a restriction against GST if suites are held for any certain amount of time.
I am also interested in something I heard regarding new housing in West Vancouver. Is it true that there are builders who pretend someone is living in them for 6 months so that they do not have to pay GST? I heard that they will leave a car in the driveway and turn the lights on and off so it looks like someone lives there.
Thanks for your previous answer and I look forward to the answers to these questions.
Sue Cook
"Mr. Kerkoff", you left out one part of the business plan puzzle, the best part, borderline crookedness. And to think Falcon has spent time and money into putting "false teeth" into protecting patrons from rip off taxi cabs drivers and not gone the extra mile to keep overbearing developers from making the hardsell on buyers of condos.
CBC MarketPlace: What you should know before you agree to buy a condo
Developer "Keroffs" (who are already maxed out at the banks), encourage their buddies to buy in early at the 25% stage (not with any intention of staying long term, but just to help out the developer). That gives the developer the appearance on paper that he has sold 20% more so that he can put up the huge advertising signs around the property that scream out 45% Sold. Only 55% left, when in reality its 75% not sold.
Rush, Rush, the only Gold Rush happenings are with the insiders who are not signing in for the full amount.
==============================
As to GST, its just a matter of having Canada Post deliver the mail to the address as a mail drop. The property is registered in his name, but he lives elsewhere.
But is there an exemption on paying GST if someone lives in the house for the first 6 months after it is constructed and then sells it?
Sue Cook
Oh and secondly = do buyers have anyway of finding out how much of a building is owned by the builders/renters when they buy.
I realize it is a tight squeeze, but this seems like extremely unethical advertising and I question why it is even legal?
Sue Cook
...sorry, builders/developers
Sue Cook
Here's an easier answer when it comes to knowing how much something cost.
Ever wonder why car dealerships offer to pay the GST on a used car?
The GST that the buyer has to pay is only on the original amount that the car dealer paid when they bought it from the last owner.
So, if you are ever wondering how much mark up the dealership is making on a used car, just look at the GST and calculate backwards.
I realize I have a lot to learn about development but I do have a few more questions I am hoping someone on this blog can answer:
1. Are there any regulations as to who gets involved in this "inside" purchasing of condos before they are put on the market? In other words can the builder/developer sell privately to friends,s relatives, etc?
2. Are there any rules regarding anyone on the public payroll to purchase condos before they go on the open market. such as elected individuals or those who work for a muncipality?
3. Is there any way the public can find out who purchased units before they went on the public market?
4. Does this not seem like insider trading such as takes place in the stock market? If it is regulated there why is it not regulated in the housing market?
I smell a rotting carcus here
Sue Cook
CBC Marketplace's expose on condo crunch, the "insider" has now become sincere purchasers who believed they were buying their dream home based on what they saw in the display suite configuration.
The developer counters with "if you are not completely satisfied, we'll buy you out" threat. The value of the property has gone up by a substantial amount, would you want to sell now and try and buy somewhere else? No.
If there is a provincial minister responsible for housing, he should do right thing and regulate the real estate industry now, its out of control.
If you see a sign on a project boasting about how many percentage points of suites are left, buyer beware.
It's hard to argue with Mayor Mussatto. Lower Lonsdale has enjoyed a remarkable transformation during his tenure. Development is up, crime is down, small businesses are doing better.
I think residents should trust him on Site 8, if history serves as an example. Mussatto wisely realizes that, given global warming, we need to find a way to reduce car usage. And adding more density to LoLo will do just that. Especially in a tower that is considered excellent and smart architecture.
If credit is to be given to the mayor, it should go to Barbara Sharp not Darrell Mussatto. It was during her terms as mayor that the decisions were made regarding most of the development west of Lonsdale as well as Pinnacle's development on the east. Sharp became vulnerable when the residents revolted over 612 Chesterfield, a proposal that sought a 54% density bonus. It took two public hearings and a townhall meeting before the developer withdrew the proposal and came back with a revised plan that fit the OCP. It's ironic that Sharp alone took the fall, when Mussatto, Keating and others were as much, if not more, in favour of that proposal.
Both the Outlook and the NSN have run editorials cautioning Mussatto about the political price he may pay for over reaching and being so out of synch with residents. The is an intense sense of betrayal, and it is not just the residents of Lower Lonsdale who are feeling it. Talk to folks who participated in discussions about Bewicke, Western Avenue, St. Andrews and the midblock designation. There is a common theme that Mussatto needs to understand.
Decisions are not made by the Mayor alone. It takes four votes. But voters tend to hold the Mayor to account when they are unhappy. Mussatto should read Sharp's downfall as a cautionary tale. Common Darryll. We know change is difficult, but we know you can do it.
anon 4:19 - if this is not Darrell it has to be his mother!!
How dare you blow your own whistle so hard, you did nothing to stop the crime in my area. It was done with myself, Bob Fearnley, Pam Bookham and a big hand for Const. Dabiri.
Last week with the snow, their was NO snow removal from the sidewalk in front of Presentation Theatre, nor was there any snow clearning along the walk way at Waterfont. This is not unusal for Lower Lonsdale. Come take a took at the deplorable and unsafe condition of the sidewalks. Where are the garbage disposal units along West 3rd?
Don't let your ego run your show - you could be in for a huge reality check very soon (or at least before November)
Sue Cook
Darrell Mussatto,
If you are reading this, please know that the silent majority of North Vancouverites support your hard work for the City and for this progressive project.
Your aspirations for Lower Lonsdale - sustainability, environment, density, public transit linkages and leading architecture - are quite evident.
Don't listen to the bullies such as 4:59. Listen to the rest of us... the silent majority that is in support of economic progress, great amenities for culture and families, and new home for Lower Lonsdale.
You're doing the right thing, Mayor Mussatto. Fight the good fight. You have my vote. And you will have many, many others.
Hi,
Does anyone have info on TLCA? I understand many of them live in highrises themselves, so I thought it would be interesting to turn the lens on them.
What buildings do they live in? How much are their properties worth? Are they fighting this strictly because they are worried about their view and property value?
I think it's important to find out more about these people against Site 8, especially since there's an implication they are against children, families and outsiders.
Several of them live in Chadwick Court, which is one of the most expensive condominium towers in North Vancouver.
Many others live in the new developments such as Time, where the condos go $500k to $1 million.
One thing these folks have in common: They are rich, retired and dead-set against anyone else enjoying the view and the community except them.
"One thing these folks have in common: They are rich, retired and dead-set against anyone else enjoying the view and the community except them."
It would appear you have just summarized eloquently much of the problem with undertaking anything progressive on the North Shore.
I think it is important to know who the purchasers of the units inside this proposed tower will be.
Obviusly they will have to be much richer then the folks that are protesting this development.
How many inside deals are going to happen with this project and who will be the lucky loto winners?
Sue Cook
Sue - with all due respect to the cause for which you so nobly fight - why on earth would a city embark on building a structure that absorbs prime real estate and build it to attract low income renters?
Once again, this is not about views. This is about process and the OCP. This is about the years of consultation with the public previously that is all being ignored. There is a TLCA general meeting Tues night Feb 5th at 7pm at North Shore Bowling, 141 West 3rd, for anyone interested.
Anon 10:26 - so sorry, I thought the City was to support all of it's citizens, especially those who actually work here.
Please tell me what the majority of jobs in the City are and what the salaries are for those jobs?
How many of the proposed units will actually have a view of the waterfront and what is the cost for these units going to be?
It is quite obvious that the majority of us are no longer welcome here - what is the name for that? Oh yes it is called discrimination - it is called created poverty - it is called inhuman - but there you go.
How absoultely disgusting that our elected officals want to create so much hardship on hard working local people
Sue Cook
I'm anon 10:26:
Sue - the city is a business. It's job is to provide as many services as possible to as many residents as possible at the lowest cost possible.
To that end, everything it does and every decision it makes must be made towards the maximization of one-shot revenues or the reduction of expenses.
At least that's the way it's supposed to work, so let's pretend for a moment that it does.
I'm just going to pluck numbers out of the sky for this example, so please don't call me on them. But let's suppose that the proposed building has 40 floors of residential space. And let's assume that there's 8, 750 sq ft suites per floor for a total of 320 suites. Let's also assume that CNV is 50% shareholder.
If these suites sell for an average of $650/sq foot (current price of the Pier project) that means a total revenue of just over $1.5 Billion. If we assume that the profit margin is 30%, that means that CNV puts $23.5 million in it's jeans right from the get-go.
Those suites will then pay property taxes, supposedly based on their fair market value. For round numbers, let's assume taxes of $3000 per suite for a total annual revenue of approx $1mill. Of that, CNV sees approx 40% of that (I think) so they actually get $400k/yr.
Now - if that same project was done as low-income housing there would be less suites and more commercial space. Let's assume 35 floors with the same suite count. If we assume that each suite rented for $750/month (avg), the total revenue would be $2.5mill/year but that money would be required to pay off the debt owing on the building. that debt would be approx. $1.25 billion so debt servicing would be approximately $2.25 million..per month! That means that CNV would have to top up revenues to the tune of some $28mil/year. And where would that money come from?? The other residents of course.
This would mean that every other residents taxes would go up considerable to subsidize the tower. Is that fair to the other residents?
OK - like I said, my numbers are not realistic but they prove the point that if the project is geared towards low-income housing, it doesn't pencil and the CNV would not be performing the job it's been tasked to do.
HOWEVER...that's not to say there isn't middle ground. The Woodwards project is one to watch as they've mixed subsidized low income housing with free-hold titles. I'm not convinced this will work, but I'm not convinced it won't either and maybe we'll have insight before the final plans for the CNV tower are finalized. Maybe, just maybe there's room to twin the Woodwards concept and perhaps re-scale it to meet the local needs.
What is the cost of a few thousand people who are now homeless?
Where are the workers going to come from to do the service jobs which are the majority of jobs in the City?
Why not trying to acutally find a way of saving the rental buildings that are already here.
If the waterfront tower goes ahead only two things will happen - it will be an empty shell which will cost the City millions because no revenue will be coming in. The other side is that it will be dividing the City like it has never been divided before.
A huge building filled with people probably close to the millionaire status, most of whom will be Internationlal. They indeed will not want any of us "riff raff" around them. What about all the local shops who will they cater to - those of us who are the now low income earners (formerly middle class) or the super rich.
Just how much money will we have to pay Mayor and Council members so they will be able to live in this ultra rich super exclusive area?
Sue Cook
Why is Sue repeating Darryl's speech?
Why wait to blame the international property owners to not wanting the "riff raff" living in LoLoLand.
Anon 7:10 - that seems to be exactly the opinion the Mayor most of council and most of Senior Staff feel.
Already seeing the brand new Rolls Royces and Bentleys touring Lower Lonsdale, so I quess that means we can cut back on public transit - good work City Hall
Sue Cook
New Canadians plotting an invasion ...
International Property Owners conspiraring ...
Foreign Drug Kingpins ...
Large scale corruption with Councillors and senior staff being bribed by developers with "deals" on the purchase of new condos ...
Kids hanging around a 7-11 ....
What an exciting world Sue Cook lives in!
I KNEW IT WAS TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stats Canada figures on the average income in the City and District of North Vancouver. Just how many are going to be able to purhase in the ugly elephant on site ?
2001 38,383
2002 38,882
2003 40,226
2004 42,381
2005 45,211
Sus Cook
By the same logic, how many were able to purchase in any of the other buildings constructed in Lower Lonsdale, or new homes constructed elsewhere on the North Shore? There is lots of "local money" in the two North Vancouvers.
Frankly, this debate over Site 8 has taken a disturbing turn - into xenophobia.
Sue, you need to lighten up about outsiders who want to enjoy our community. They are not evil-doers. They are regular working people who might enjoy a nice place to live.
12:06 Once again you have to put some stupid accusations in place.
Once upon a time Richmond was a quiet little farming community. People there were not wealthy but they were proud to be one of the major food sources in the Lower Mainland. I am sure that if someone told them they and their traditions and language would be replaced almost completely they would have gotten the same comments that I am.
How "mixed" and diverse is the community in Richmond? How many different languages are spoken? While I am sure you think this is a good thing, I imagine all the people that have been forced out of Richmond (cannot afford house prices, or find a job because of language restrictions) would not agree.
How would you feel if the majority of properties were being bought up by a bunch of really wealthy Texans all of whom were good buddies of George W? What about if they were all members of the upper British class? In other words it would be equally fine with you if the majority of wealthy immigrants were all white?
The fact is if the mention of the word immigration equates with the word xenophobia then I think that says it all about Canada's immigration system.
I believe that if a culture is being created where only the very wealthy are invited to live there at the expense of those who already live and work there, it is actually just another form of discrimination.
Interesting also that on one hand people are complaining about apathy - a group of citizens decides to take a stand against site 8 and they are just a bunch of old rich retirees. Who exactly owns discrimination when it comes to this topic?
I believe those of you who strongly support site 8 are not the least bit interested in the good of the community as you are only interested in the dollars. Actually George W and his Texan friends would fit in here very well.
Sue Cook
I never liked Barb Sharp (and voted for Rod Clark), but would be inclined to vote for her this time around. They say you learn a lot in defeat, so perhaps she has changed. Besides, she can't be any worse than the NDP bunch currently at City Hall. If business and community groups unite around her, she could pull off a victory.
Sharp may run again in North Van
By Sam Cooper - North Shore Outlook - February 07, 2008
Former mayor Barb Sharp considers running again in CNV against Darrell Mussatto amid development controversy.
Former City of North Vancouver mayor Barbara Sharp is strongly criticizing the current council’s “complete lack of vision and leadership” and considering running against Mayor Darrell Mussatto this fall.
In an interview with The Outlook Monday, Sharp scorched CNV council’s handling of the 433-foot Site 8 tower proposal and the controversial decision to demolish three heritage-protected shipyard buildings.
Based on her own experience, Sharp also cast doubt on Mussatto’s insistence that he was surprised at the height of the Millennium Developments tower proposal for the foot of Lonsdale, tabled last October.
Sharp was coy about intentions to run in the CNV, but said she’s been contacted by a number of people recently regarding her seeking election in the city, as well as the provincial and federal governments.
“I’m looking at (running for mayor) and saying hmm...” Sharp said. “It’s only February, but there’s a lot of people that have called me with the conflicts that are arising now (in CNV).”
Sharp would have until Sept. 30 to declare intentions to run for the November 2008 municipal election.
She now does consulting work, works on labour relations for B.C. Salvation Army and is taking a master’s degree in conflict resolution from Royal Roads University in Victoria.
Sharp said she’s the original leader in North Vancouver on sustainability and related density and as such accepts responsibility for upsetting some residents during her tenure. But she contends that what she sees now in the city is “overwhelming” development.
“It’s too much, too quickly, where people can’t absorb it.”
On the Site 8 proposal, Sharp said: “I just can’t believe they want to put something as obstructive as that at the foot of Lonsdale — it’s supposed to be a people place. We don’t need a pool (offered as an amenity in the deal) in the ocean.”
And Sharp said given her experience as mayor, she backs up Coun. Pam Bookham’s recent comments in The Outlook doubting Mussatto’s position that he had no foreknowledge of the height of the Site 8 plan.
“I will tell you quite frankly I often had developers come in and meet with me,” in informal sessions which typically helped shape incoming proposals, Sharp explained. “To say (Mussatto) didn’t know anything, I’d be surprised.”
Sharp added she’s “appalled” at “a complete lack of leadership and vision” with council’s recent vote to demolish three heritage shipyard buildings.
In an interview Tuesday, when told of Sharp’s comments on Site 8, Mussatto again insisted “I got to see Site 8 after (the architect) had done all the plans (and) I was quite surprised at the height.”
While reiterating he had to give the Site 8 plan due process, Mussatto said he has now decided he cannot support the original proposal.
“Many of the residents have very legitimate concerns and I do too,” Mussatto said. “Can I support a building at that height? No way.”
A staff report filed last Friday states that based on “extensive opposition” from public input, Millennium Developments will no longer pursue the 433-foot tower plan.
“Millennium ... are seeking an alternative concept that will be viable for the city and themselves.”
Mussatto said the developer will likely present new options including a new mix of amenities at the next council meeting, Feb. 18.
On Sharp’s musings about running for his office, Mussatto said, “Barb Sharp served the community very well for her time ... (but) I would certainly stand on my record and run (against her).”
Sharp said she will keep a number of political opportunities open.
She said a federal run is a very distant possibility, but she’s not ruling out a provincial run in 2009. Without answering directly, Sharp said she would be more inclined to side with the Liberals in the province.
“Put it this way, I think the government we have provincially right now is pretty positive.”
Right on Sue, the loss of Richmond to the Chinese is the perfect example of where North Vancouver is going.
We need a head tax for immigrants with all the money used for affordable housing.
We need to build a community that has a mixture and a balance. We need to recognize the people who live here now (as well as their incomes) and should not use immigration as a means of forcing people out.
I think we have a right to expect that English and French are the languages for the work place - including hiring proceedures.
Why isn't there as much concern and acutal action in encouraging the building (or presevering of) affordable rental housing for those of us who are living here now?
In any case there is nothing that I can do about it - Darrell and the Developers are going to do what they want regardless of what the general public want.
Barbara Sharp being a better choice? Oh please!
What exactly is Darrels good record?
Re the controversy over whether the Mayor knew in advance about the Site 8 proposal, he acknowledged in Council Monday that he may have been approached a year prior. Counc Perrault did her best to shame Counc Bookham, and failed. Counc Keating disgracefully motioned for adjournment in the midst of the "discussion". Another sad day in NVC council chamber.
Another victory for City Staff and Developers - another set back for democray and general public
Time to start looking for a brand new Mayor and Council with the exception of Bookham and Fearnley
Sue Cook
Lonsdale - shining city on the hill?
By SUSAN M. BOYCE, 24 HOURS
Located almost exactly in the centre of North Vancouver, Lonsdale is a vibrant, eclectic neighbourhood on a quest for positive transition.
Rising sharply up the slope from Lonsdale Quay toward the mountains, this area boasts spectacular views and plenty of