Just when you thought traffic congestion in North Vancouver could get no worse just wait for the watermain project construction on Capilano that will begin in August. Many people are bound to be really upset as it will be mayhem for a number of months. Will this mean a revival of Lisa Muri's 'Pace of development' that was narrowly defeated by District council recently?
Metro Vancouver Site
76 comments:
Maintenance of infrastructure is a fact of urban (and suburban) life. Would you prefer the main be allowed to deteriorate to the point of being unusable and then repaired or replaced at even greater expense to the tax payer? John, this post reflects a real lack of understanding of the operations of any municipality, no matter the rate of development. You're attempting to create a bogeyman where none is present. If you want to look for someone to blame, blame the people who insist on allowing inefficient sprawl and single occupant automobile usage. The traffic that you complain about is made up of all the residents of your community, including all those who rail against development and the mythical north shore 'gridlock'.
Nasty, nasty. Perhaps you should start your own blog, you are obviously not open to any understanding or debate about densification in our communities.
Which developer do you work for? Or how are you making money off of densification on the North Shore?
You certainly don't seem to be uninformed enough to push this all through unless you have $$$$ on the horizon.
As far as this "mythical north shore gridlock" I was caught in it recently when I tried to get home to Lynn Valley from Edgemont. It took more than an hour.
For God's sake. The Transportation and other departments at the District have worked very hard to make this massive project relatively painless.
There have also been more than one public meeting and local communications to make sure that anyone affected knows that it will be happening.
By any reasonable measure the District has done an excellent job in planning for this work.
Whatever you might want to complain a about, this is not it.
John, its an 80 year old pipe replacement, it needs to be replaced because it is 80 years old, not because of the "pace of development'. The actual pipe is sitting almost entirely within the Capilano River Regional Park. They could replace it on sight without much disruption to the roads, but it would require a 25m swath to be cut through the park so they can dig the trench deep enough. I think I would prefer building it properly under the road.
Geeez lighten up a little. Just asking if there might be a revival of a significant event in recent municipal history. I think I understand these projects need to be done. People may react to it or they may not. Devil's advocate?
John, don't post crap and then ask people to "lighten up". You have an agenda to inflame your anti development crowd at whatever cost. Yellow journalism. You should be ashamed.
Let's see who out of five comments thus far, not including John, lives on the West Side, north of Marine Drvie, needing to use Capilano Road as a means of getting to and from their homes to work, to school, to UBC, to YVR, to Park Royal, to Lonsdale Quay, Second Narrows,etc.?
Who would want to put up with the construction of a pipeline from August 2015 to February 2016?
Who would enjoy winter driving condition?
Hands up if GROUSE MOUNTAIN RESORT will remain calm and cool as they see their bottom line drop Fall and Winter and Spring HURT.
Hands up if the direct and indirect local jobs at Grouse Mountain Resort will be less than previous years, except for 2008, of course (Sub-Prime Mortgage-crash).
Capilano Suspension Bridge, great new parking lot being built.
Montroyal's to and fro cross-over to Delbrook/Westview will be delightful, mixed in with William Griffin construction traffic.
The Greater Vancouver Water District should give property owners a tax break for SIX months of inconvenience.
And there it is. "The normal operations of my own municipality is inconvenient to me. I want compensation!" The selfishness of some people never ceases to amaze me. Just a heads up, Capilano is the only road that will get you from point a to b.
Normal is defined as: Expected
A 1935 water line that is replaced 80 years later with a construction time line of 6 months is NOT normal.
Its not about compensation, its about reducing property taxes during the construction period for residents and businesses.
Its no different than what is currently done by the BC Transportation Ministry to property owners effected by spill overs from their highways onto local streets.
Again, we residents of the North Shore are subsidizing Metro exactly the same way we are expected to subsidize TransLink. We already pay more than our fair share, and subsidy also includes inconvenience to our lifestyle and ability to move around. And we are just EXPECTED to pay more! We have lousy politicians at the DNV.
From my experience as I accompanied Jim Hanson knocking at doors from one end of the District to another during the election this past November was traffic congestion. Pace of development was a close second. Whether these concerns are genuinely valid depends on who you talk to.
"You have an agenda to inflame your anti development crowd at whatever cost. Yellow journalism." - You should be ashamed." is an extreme statement that is a bunch of crap.
Total crap. John is a non-inflamatory person.
From my experience ... this past November (one of the big concerns) was traffic congestion. ... Whether these concerns are genuinely valid depends on who you talk to.
Um, traffic congestion is one of those things that can actually be measured, and evaluated against accepted standards within the profession.
I much prefer that our District make decisions based on solid research and measurement, by professionals, not on the opinions of Bubba sitting on his front porch going "Yer right Rhonda, them traffic jams in Lynn Valley is darned massive!"
(Postscript: the phrase "gridlock" is one of those things that actually has a definition. "It took me three extra minutes to get to Save-On" is not "gridlock.")
"Accepted standards within the profession."
These guys band together to make these standards. They are based on bias and $$$.
It's the same as the Coast Guard saying that the oil recovery in English Bay was well within professional standards within the industry.
Well....it's not good enough to have people policing and setting standards for their own industry. Some even give out awards!
Anon 1:41pm, what are your qualifications that make you better informed than a professional? Do you display the same level of disdain for your doctor when you're told something you don't like?
Every time a development proposal comes forward there is a traffic study.
Every time the study says that there will be little or no problem with traffic.
The development is approved.
Then the traffic problems start.
The traffic problems started when homeowners bought into the need to own a car for every family member. Need to blame someone for the traffic, then go blame every household that has multiple cars in their driveway.
For those that like details, here's the Metro Vancouver web page about the project.
Of particular note, only 200m at a time will be closed, with the work zone moving from North to South, and detours adjusted as needed.
Now then Barry, don't let reality get in the way of letting the vocal minority display their usual histrionics...
Also, when they're done with the watermain, Metro is going to build hi-rise towers and Cap Road will be JUST LIKE METROTOWN!
Capilano Road Closure 200 metres at a time still means Capilano is CLOSED for the duration other than local traffic.
Adding insult to injury, Capilano at Edgemont intersection will be closed indefinitely. Sorry for the Inconvenience Village
Oh, the inconvenience of maintaining an aging infrastructure! Have you any idea how ridiculously selfish you sound? Use a different route! There are options available to you! The fact that your tax dollars are being used for their intended purpose should be enough to make you appreciate some short term inconvenience for long term access to drinking water!
I will side with the nutbars on one aspect... The District does get a terrible deal considering the inconvenience of hosting these major regional infrastructure pieces.
We are billed at the same rate for water that White Rock pays, but to get the water to white rock and to retreat the water at a substation near White Rock costs a lot more than simply delivering the water to North Van. Our water rates should either recognize the lower cost of delivering the service or we should receive higher grants in lieu to cover the inconveniences and lost revenues from hosting the major infrastructure pieces.
7:15:00 pm
My taps (Upper Capilano Road) are working perfectly except for a little cloudiness. Apparently the One.Two Billion Dollar Twin Tunnel Filtration Plant Project has the engineers flushing out the system with the residue being dumped into Capilano. Grand opening is later this month.
It is a Regional Water Board not a N. Van Water Board. So the Region pays a similar rate.
So what if they didn't do proper maintenance and replace an 80 year old pipe? It ruptures, due to low pressure in the line the weight of the earth and roadbase collapse the pipe for blocks (see Deep Cove Rd. a few years ago). Torrents of water flow downhill onto residential properties flooding the homes and destroying landscaping. Potable water is under a boil advisory for a couple of weeks and temporarily unavailable until it can be rerouted. Water pressure in fire hydrants is zero for a wide swath of N. Vancouver jeopardizing commercial, industrial, and local residents.
Hmmmm...scheduled proper maintenance vs or sparing some folks an inconvenience. Can't think which is smarter and better in the long run.
What about the asbestos concrete water mains that run through the district and are only being replaced at a rate of $12M per year? When these pipes burst, it is on the homeowners, not the DNV, who has to pay even though the DNV admits risk.
Let's spend our money on the mountain biking community! Insanity.
How much money ids being spent on the mountain bike community? Nice defection, by the way.
Got to agree that fresh water, sanitary and solid waste removal, public safety through police and fire depts, and a good road system trumps nice to have stuff.
Resources should always be dedicated to fully fund critical infrastructure way before the frills.
What if the "critical infrastructure" is constantly being challenged by municipal councils approving density that this infrastructure cannot support? Then they cry to other levels of government and ask for public input on possible solutions.
The only solution is to get people to pay more attention to municipal politics and quit electing morons. With a 20% voter turnout.
I agree, stop permitting the sprawl which is the most wasteful kind of density.
Look at what is happening in Surrey. Too many people too fast. Where is the planning? Oh, sorry, the municipal PLANNERS by definition need something to PLAN. And they are increasing exponentially.
Some people just need to complain, or they aren't happy. Let the infrastructure collapse, then you'll really have something to complain about.
@Anon 11:17:00 am
Well played sir, well played.
Anon 12:34. You're absolutely right. Problem is infrastructure isn't sexy and it doesn't get a lot of political brownie points.
Try this. We replaced more pipes than we thought we would! vs We promise to spend $1,000,000 on state of the art artificial turf fields for sports teams!
Infrastructure really is "out of sight, out of mind" except when it fails then the blame game begins and things get serious.
Some are missing the point. Why shouldn't the DNV spend money on replacing the asbestos lead pipes instead of building a parking lot for mountain bikers? And maintaing said parking lot with showers and flush toilets?
You know Anon, we do have the option to do both.
Once upon a time government figured out what services the population needed to be happy and productive, then set tax rates to cover the costs.
Some governments still do.
There is simply no reason for the DNV to subsidize the mountain bikers in our community.
Anon 6:43pm, maybe the mountain bikers will follow your thinking and stop patronizing DNV businesses. I hope you realize how much money the mountain bike community injects into the community by supporting local business.
Prove it!
I think you're wrong.
You don't think mountain bikers (both those who live in the District and those who visit) contribute to the local economy?
It isn't whether or not they contribute, it is do they contribute enough to offset the exclusive use of, and the erosion of a big chunk of our wilderness.
My view is that if they are content to improve upon and work within the space that is outlined in the Alpine Rec Plan, then I am supportive, If every few years they get bored of those trails and decide to keep cutting unauthorized trails then I am not supportive.
Last I heard, everyone who wants to has access to the wilderness. It isn't the sole realm of mountain bikers. I hike the trails with my dogs on a regular basis. This is a recreation area for everyone to use. So, rather than sitting behind your computer getting your shorts in a knot, just go out and enjoy them. You might discover that those rude, brutish, inconsiderate mountain bikers are just a figment of your imagination.
You don't think mountain bikers (both those who live in the District and those who visit) contribute to the local economy?
How many are we talking about here, bikers and hikers? per day, per week, per year
We're talking about all of them. Regardless of the numbers any given day, week, year, don't you think they contribute to the local economy by patronizing local business?
Mountain Bikers / Hikers contributing to the local economy? Local being the North Shore? Visiting the local Starbuck for a drink and a snack: $9 and then leave the North Shore
The NSMBA has a knack for twisting words, name dropping, just to pat themselves on their backs. In a presentation to DNV Council they included this. Our "Economic Importance: The North Shore is a World Heritage Site for mountain biking".
UNESCO World Heritage Site doesn't have the North Shore listed for anything. Too literal?
NSMBA can be proud about their trail building capabilities on the North Shore but only if they had left out the word 'Heritage'. As it is Top of the Podium belongs to Whistler with nine other communities in British Columbia with these nine runner ups: Squamish, Fernie, Nelson, Golden, Kelowna, Kamloops, Vancouver, Vancouver Island, Revelstoke.
Does anyone see District of North Vancouver?
What's mountain biking got to do with repairing water mains on Capilano? Is anyone actually managing this blog?
Mountain biking has everything to do with this Post. Cars will be blocked going up and down Capilano over the duration of 'cut and duck for cover' six foot diameter pipeline from August 2015 to March 2016. What better way to travel, anywhere.
The mountain bikers can hijack virtually anything to spread their message.
The old pipe will be replaced as part of infrastructure replacement which is completely appropriate. Period.
Tempest in a teapot.
with 2,500 full patch members the nsmba are a force to be wreckoned with, imagine if they were a party
"IS" a force to be "RECKONED" with.
Unfortunately this is true, as John's letter in the NSN recently pointed out, they are a huge "lobbying group" and that is their forte. However, with the Kraal case coming before the courts, the "real" logistics will be out there. The uninformed are being informed.
Speaking of 'managing' since the topic has gone astray, was just thinking that there should be a post about Kraal pleading guilty of the 'booby trapping' of Skull Trail. The thing is there has been so many posts here on the mountain biking controversy.
Why don't you manage your blog and delete the off topic comments?
That seems a little rigid.
Hardly. It's about keeping a discussion on course. There are plenty of threads dedicated to mountain biking, so maybe encourage people to continue that discussion in one of those.
@Anonymous whatever..
"Unfortunately this is true, as John's letter in the NSN recently pointed out, they are a huge "lobbying group" and that is their forte."
If you're going to correct an Anonymous's grammar, be sure not to post run on sentences whilst doing so.
@Anonymous April 24, 2015 10:51:00 am "It's about keeping a discussion on course".
The diversion away from Capilano Watermain Project slipped sideways on April 21, 2015, at precisely 6:43:00 pm
"There is simply no reason for the DNV to subsidize the mountain bikers in our community."
A rather cryptic comment, but a lot of truth. At a March 31st 2015 Special Called Meeting of DNV Council the NSMBA requested $100,000 to rehabilitate the North Shore mountain biking trails. Multi-Use trails not mentioned.
2,500 mountain bikers , $100,000??
Economic Benefit is for whom?
So, let the other trail users organize and do the same. Where are are the other users when it comes to maintaining trails? Hell, I'd just be happy to see them pick up their garbage and dog poop.
2500 mountain bikers... How many are DNV tax payers and residents?
It always amuses me when a group that actually gets their act together enough to work with the District, to lobby Council, to build a positive public image, and an international profile, and who actually got one of their number elected to Council, is portrayed as somehow abusing the process.
In simple terms, if you and your neighbours really want to eliminate mountain biking all that you need to do is emulate the democratic practices that the NSMBA have demonstrated for you.
Or is that too much work?
(Disclaimer: spent a very enjoyable evening this week with Mathew Bond and members of HUB and the District’s Transportation Consultation Committee, riding bikes around Lynn Valley looking at where preferred cycle routes might be.)
@Barry "Disclosure" not Disclaimer
Disclaimer:
1. the act of disclaiming; the renouncing, repudiating, or denying of a claim; disavowal.
Ah! I have been well and truly pedanted!
Barry, I doubt many of the vocal minority against mountain biking have actually spent any time on the trails in our community. I've been walking these trails with my dogs for nearly 11 years and have never had a bad experience with any user. My biggest complaint is the idiots who can't pack their garbage or dog waste out with them.
I doubt whether riding a bicycle has anything to do with replacing an old water pipe.
That point has been raised, anon 7:04, but it seems that the blog owner doesn't see any merit in keeping these discussions on topic.
Interesting, how this dialogue on
Watermains turned into the "hot potato" topic of mountain biking (without me starting it, this time around).
It's just a topic won't go away, will it? Well so be it...To play the Devil's advocate, this time around...(we already know nothing is going to change with the present NSMBA status quo.)
There is plenty of evidence (for those without their "full-face helmet" blinders on) that the recent flooding and debris flow from Kilmer and Hastings Creeks, last Fall, was caused by a very degraded, compacted, and eroded watershed.
This, courtesy of all the indiscriminate MTB activities over the years, along with almost non-stop NEW trail building by the NSMBA (since 2008) and their "too many" ignorant supporters who continue dole out the funds to aid this destructive fiasco in the woods.
With all this MTB funding silting downstream, it only proves to bring in **negative revenue**. You cannot legislate stupidity.
Too sad, so many people continue to applaud and reward it. BTW, the $400,000 Fromme Parking Lot is now "budgeted" for $585,000 in DNV's Financial Plan. WhoOt! Gotta love it, don'tcha!
Next "MTB Love-In" nuttiness coming out of DNV Council will be the digging another hole in our pockets with the second proposed Fromme Parking Lot, budgeted at $800,000 (which will most likely grow in cost -- say perhaps $1 million...?) All this for appeasing of one very selfish-interest group?
Or, NOT...?
Perhaps, all of this is just a means to an end for DNV? NSMBA is merely paving way for future housing, road, and Watermain Development up our mtn. slopes...after all, Metro Vancouver has no more need to protect the watersheds on Fromme with the new Twin Tunnel Filtration Plant in completion(Perhaps DNV -- or rather, Metro Vancouver is as sly as a fox, as its volunteer NSMBA "chain gang" is played for fools...?)
What else can you do with a damaged watershed, anyhow? People can't keep picking up the pieces every time the damaged watershed fails to do the job it was naturally made for (flood and debris/mudslide control). It will be the only way the District can collect on all those millions of dollars in MTBing's negative revenue silting downstream.
Goodness me, did I really say that? ;) After all, I am just playing the Devil's advocate, this time around...
Plus, I have asked DNV to correct me if I am wrong -- (BUT, I have never heard anything back about NOT building future homes on the slopes of Fromme...)
Makes you kinda wonder, doesn't it? Time will tell.
Does anyone know if MLA Thornwaite has apprised Finance Minister Mike de Jong that she has some prime upper slope North Shore surplus land waiting to be con-veyed to developers for 2/3 of its appraised value, but only if a deal can be struck before the end of the month?
I see merit in free speech.
Are these Seymour's Federal jurisdictional CMHC lands, Mountain Forest and Cove Forest lands? Prime real estate.
Those same lands championed by Muri and her much loved mountain biker GUARDians?
If so, isn't this the ultimate irony? Lol!
Barry, your comment on Friday, April 24, 2015 3:28:00 pm is just so full of it.
What you are saying is that if a strong-armed selfish interest group can intimidate, bully and threaten the opposition --- and then get support for all their wrong-doing from our politicians, public land managers, and corporate cohorts and industry interests -- that is called democracy?
You really need to take off those rose-coloured glasses you wear, Barry. This was far from fair and democratic public process that gave the NSMBA their present status quo -- and I am sure that you know it, too.
Mocreal, I haven't seen any evidence that the councils have been bullied into anything. Just because the councillors disagree with you doesn't mean they are afraid of the measly 300 mountain bikers who vote in DNV.
They like the mountain biking community because it supports youth activity in our community. That's it.
Funny how the self-appointed keepers of 'whatever' always claim a lack of democracy when it turns out the voting majority don't agree with them.
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