Surely there will be much rejoicing among the mysterious membership of North Van City Voices, but I think the last word belongs to Onni president Rossano De Cotiis:
“We have done everything in accordance with City rezoning policies and have essentially arrived at where we started two years ago.”
And, in looking at the documents posted on the City web site, it looks like that's the case. Onni proposed a project, took suggestions and complaints, and came back with another, smaller version. They did the public outreach required, they appeared where they had to. They played by the rules.
And yes, making donations to politicians is playing by the rules.
If Onni walks away - admittedly unlikely given how much money is already invested - upper Lonsdale will be left with a run-down Safeway store and... oh right - the junk shop is gone now.
That kind of property needs a significant sized development. It's a big important property, and sooner or later will require a large developer to do something with it. You can debate how large, but at the end of the day a lot of developers will stay away of they can't know ahead of time what the rules will be. No-one will put up the millions of dollars required to prepare a project like this if they think that their investment could be lost at the whim of a mercurial city council.
Without those big-ticket investors that site is likely going to wind up filled with yet another two story strip-mall filled with vacuum cleaner stores and health food outlets. There's nothing wrong with those, but it hardly qualifies as demonstrating the kind of vision that builds great - or even nice - cities.
60 comments:
Mysterious membership of North Van City Voices? Just wondering why mysterious? Happy to discuss.
Oh, maybe a list of the Board of Directors, an idea how many members you have... that sort of thing.
Otherwise there's no real way to judge how seriously to take the group. For all I know it's two guys with a free Wordpress blog.
Take us seriously. we don't publish our membership list. You'll have to take my word for it that we're a growing credible group.
Sorry GP, not biting.
Barry, the OCP says 2.6 fsr, don't you support the OCP?
What is so wrong with expecting a developer to follow the community plan?
Technically, the OCP is being followed. The OCP is written in a way that allows for provisions for higher densities in exchange for things the City wants or needs.
Why is density such bad word? Anything with a surface parking lot is unsustainable and an eyesore.
"anything with a surface parking lot is unsustainable and an eyesore" ... so I guess that parking in front of the store and grabbing a bunch of bananas and a quart of milk destroys my green credentials and my beautiful bimmer becomes ugly when I take the key from the lock ... ah well ...
"Anything with a surface parking lot is unsustainable"
Yeah, you're going to have to explain that.
Only extremely high density is sustainable in your view?
Only 100% lot coverage is acceptable to you?
I'll agree that too much parking is a waste, but too little parking and inaccessible parking is a waste too. Forcing people to drive around looking for a parking spot is only going to make businesses outside of those town centers look more appetizing.
"Take us seriously."
Political parties need vested, public people to be taken seriously. Even then those people have to have some cred, or at the very least some well thought out popular policies.
We will take you seriously when you say who you are, who supports you, and show us what you stand for. Until that transpires you are just another unelectable person or group.
To all these comments from people taking shots, if you took the trouble to look at our website you would see that people commenting and writing letters are not claiming anonymity. The names are there for you to investigate as you wish. And to the person who wrote "to GP" I can't imagine that Gary Penway would be writing on this blog. Our website is clear about what we stand for, who we are, and who supports us - the people who live in the City of North Van.
Barry, Voices being a city group and you being District, I think you have missed them rather than them being secret.
2 elections ago an unregistered group called Voices put an ad in the NSN endorsing Council Candidates.
Last election an group called Independent Voices legally registered as a third party group by Toni Bolton. http://bit.ly/TMRMq4
13 people donated to this group and 16 people were listed on this ad as supporters - very publicly. Most were in positions on one of our Community Assns or active with their Community Association - people who spend their spare time fighting to make North Van a better place.
Many of these and other people have appeared before Council and written letters to the editor while publicly identifying themselves as members of Voices - no secret conspiracy here.
I wrote a blog article on this last April (link on my name in this comment) and Toni clearly stated Voices was an expanded Independent Voices.
The Constitutions of the various Community Associations have rules against partisan political activity so I see Voices as the politically partisan arm of those who are on the CAs. This group has been around for over 7 years but now has just done a website.
Of course the anon trasher was trying to accuse Voices of being a front group run by George Pringle - not Gary Penway. When I return in February, I may join Voices but I will be very busy with Unite North Van.
Perhaps the people against densification are just as rigid or more than the pro-development types. It must be stated that the CNV OCP has not progressed to approval and therefore I understand Couns. Bookham and Clark's concerns.
The DNV OCP did not go to referendum. It was approved unanimously by DNV Council after public input of under 4000 residents and there are 60,450 eligible voters in the DNV.
Now council talks about adherence to the OCP.
It's a scam.
Thanks George - good background. The Voices people should add that info to their web site.
http://www.bbb.org/mbc/business-reviews/real-estate-developers/onni-group-of-companies-in-vancouver-bc-223007
Maybe some of the Onni failure will spill over in to the proposed densification of Lynn Valley Centre
There is always a reference to LEC from the developer. I am to understand that the developer also promised to provide accommodations for one of the LEC’s plants. This leads to a question. How does the LEC compensate the constituents of North Vancouver for the use of the land that houses the other boiler plants within the city? Have they a lease agreement or did they just squat?
We all want a new Lonsdale, but somewhat in Target
with the OCP. We all know we need density, but Onni
Is walking away with grandeur profits.
I thought Onni was walking, why not take the High Roas
as you walk., you lack any Sophistication along with
Mayor Mussarro , Linda Buchannan. A
Last comment should read high road and would like
to add Craig Keating.
Total lack of civility with this process. Very sad state of affairs. So the ad in the News yesterday was their "official withdrawal"??? No mention on the City website.
Who will they attack next?
Why would it be mentioned on the City web site? And who really attacked whom? The process is broken and council needs to get their act together. Like the project or not, that's fine. But there is a real problem when a developer jumps through every hoop required of him only to have the rules/process changed without warning. And before anyone starts getting snarky, I don't work for the developer or the city. I'm just one of many who think the development was right for the location. If we can't have density in the city core, right on Lonsdale, then where?
Beauty in the eyes of the beholder...
Didn’t Onni get caught when a letter was sent under the guise of a constituent to the editor of the NSN praising the development? It was later discovered the letter was a produced by someone within the Onni organization? Am I wrong?
Don't quite understand Mussato's comment to the press to "be careful of the message you are sending developers"...it seems the message from the CNV is loud and clear and it's build, build, build...and has been for some time. Losing this Onni project, especially if the community has spoken aginst it is hardly a bad message.
Don't quite understand Mussato's comment to the press to "be careful of the message you are sending developers"...it seems the message from the CNV is loud and clear and it's build, build, build...and has been for some time. Losing this Onni project, especially if the community has spoken aginst it is hardly a bad message.
If there is money to be made there will be a developer.
I think the city has a reputation as easy pickings and Onni was going for the max.
In my opinion the vision and direction of the city is influenced to heavily by the City Manager and his toadies. Time to clean house....
There is no vision and direction of the City, that could be the problem.
It's pack 'em in - and damn the consequences. Where's the increase in park space with increased population, where are more hospital beds, etc etc etc?
The viewpoint of an observer:
It's obvious the contributors to the Voices (among others) are all part of a small group working together on a common agenda and wishing to influence public opinion and City Council to achieve their objective: defeat smart growth. They are the vocal minority. The same people are submitting letters to and commenting on local news websites and the Voices website over and over again loudly disparaging Onni's development on Lonsdale. They seem to think their views and opinions carry greater weight than anyone else's.
The City is too small to have a vision. They need to annex the District to build a vision and a plan for the whole area.
anon 07:04
Smart growth....Seriously?
anon @ 7:04
Let me guess which group you are a part of.....
Message to observer at 7.04pm:
Hardly a small group and hardly a minority. Where are all the letters from the supporters of the development?
I think I saw the guy sitting next to me who spoke for Onni as an extra on Supernatural. An actor hired by onni?
City annex the District?
5 sq. mi with a pop of 45K annexes 67 sq. mi. with a pop of 85K? Hmmm.
Maybe Andorra should take over Spain.
The true people behind Voices exposed....
http://nvcityvoices.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/letter-to-mayor-and-council-from-voices/
Did you know that you can walk the Lonsdale corridor from the seabus to 13th and never see the mountains anymore? Welcome to the concrete jungle.
One North Vancouver, one Municipality!
That would be a dream Vision.
,
District council amended the Seylynn proposal and made it even higher! It was set to go at 28, 28 and 24 stories, and they upped it to 32, 28, and 24.
What is wrong with this picture?
32, 28, 24 is what was considered at the public hearing on November 6th.
On December 3rd Council amended the zoning to 28, 28, and 24.
On December 10th Council reverted back to the original 32, 28, and 24.
So suggesting that "they made it even higher" needs a bit more explanation.
North Van City Voices Agenda
http://wflbc.com/
Date of the emails is February 21 2012, and we're hardly NIMBYs.. density done right is the goal.
We're all for development of that site.
Onni's going to run out of people to discredit.
Since all the ones who needed to be discredited have been discredited....
It's all rather embarassing for you; however, you are shameless people so I suspect you will carry on pretending to be beyond reproach.
Obvious Voices is credible by the number of people
who support them
Onni lacks a Proffessional Public Relations Department
Beau Jarvis lacks Professiomalism
This City has zero vision. The main drive for development is more tax revenue. Look at Marine drive, what a joke. All that planning and I still can't walk on the sidewalk. Capilano square was a huge missed opportunity and I get to sit on benches that face away from the street a foot away from moving traffic.The hotel at the foot of Lonsdale is as unfriendly as it gets. How do you screw up a waterfront property? The corner of Bewicke a Marine, meh, and the sidewalk is unuseable.Zero vision dictated by stupid amenities and tax revenue. This place will look brutal in 50 years.
To: 3.52 there's an "open letter" on the Voices website for anyone interested in the latest Onni campaign
To 10:31
Yes, an open letter drafted by one of those who was a party to the incriminating email string. A weak attempt to drag a branch closely behind to cover embarassing tracks.
That email string discredits the North Vancouver City Voices as a whole and, by extension, their website and everything posted on it. They use it as a propaganda tool in pursuit of their self serving objectives.
Oohh tough words anonymous poster!
I suppose tough words are better than those without substance...
Nothing I can see incriminating in that email...
what would be their self-serving objectives?
Tough words??? No one is trying to be tough. They are just words that accurately depict the situation.
Their self serving objectives would be to "shape Council" for their own purposes using threats as succinctly described by Scott on the What's for Lunch BC website.
http://wflbc.com/2012/12/11/north-vancouver-nimbys-playing-politics-and-taking-control/
It's pretty clear to me and if it is not to you, I suggest you are not a logical thinker.
http://wflbc.com/2012/12/11/north-vancouver-nimbys-playing-politics-and-taking-control/#comments
"· Voices has not adopted a position on the Onni proposal. Some individual residents who are members of Voices are opposed to the proposal as currently structured, and have expressed their concerns through the normal channels – letters and emails to councillors, petitions, speaking at public hearings etc. – but on their own behalf, not as representatives of Voices. We have not met with any councillors on this matter."
The above is an excerpt copy and pasted from Toni Bolton's open letter to the membership of the North Vancouver City Voices. Really Toni? Voices has not taken a postion on Onni's development. If such was the case I would imagine Voices would post letters and comments representing both sides of the debate. That is definitely not the case. Was Mr. DeCotiis' open letter to the community of North Vancouver posted on the Voices website? Certainly not. Have comments speaking in favour of the project been allowed to be posted on the Voices website? Certainly not. It's obvious Voices has taken a position and for any member or representative to say otherwise is simply untrue in my view. Can we really believe anything Toni Bolton says?
The one development that comes to mind as a development that gave back to the community was the JBCC. No monstrosity, actually a well-designed area in lower Lonsdale.
It's a civic building, of course it gives back to the community! You can't even use that as a comparison!
JBCC development was a win for the developer and a win for the community.
Onni development is a win for the developer and a loss for the community. The city can do better without selling out the constituents.
Developer “hijacks” public consultation, makes legal threats against elected officials: North Van Councilors speak out
From The Mainlander.com more coverage of the Onni development:
http://themainlander.com/2012/12/14/developer-hijacks-public-consultation-makes-legal-threats-against-elected-officials-north-van-councilors-speak-out/
Wow, for someone who keeps insisting that your little organization hasn't adopted a position, your posts here and elsewhere suggest otherwise. Seems to me that you're just another special interest lobby group. No better or worse than the developers you are 'watching'. At least with developers, we know what they're up to and who they are and who they donate their time and money to.
I see these little organizations as a great way to promote dialogue. Keep up the good work.
Nothing is wrong with dialogue, so long as it is honest and transparent. I think that the person here representing "Voices" is being deceitful when s/he claims that they aren't adopting a position.
You mean like the honesty and transparency exhibited by local government and some developers?
To 9.34am... of course this is a special interest lobby group.
Definition:
An interest group (also called an advocacy group, lobbying group, pressure group, or special interest) is a group, however loosely or tightly organized, that is determined to encourage or prevent changes in public policy without trying to be elected. The textbook used in class defines this as "An organization of people with shared ideas and attitudes who attempt to influence public policy."
Voices has not stated a position, is not encouraging letter writing, and has not received one letter in favour of the development as is. We are also not anti-development.
Just because they are scum, why do act like scum to combat them and feel that you are rightous?
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